Post by New Admin on Dec 31, 2005 16:55:10 GMT -5
Myths About Bear Tanking
In my quest to be an effective bear tank, I've been told a lot of things from druids and non-druids alike. Most of which involved theorycraft why bears are bad tanks, and that I should respec restoration. Here are some of them:
1) Armor has diminishing returns:
This is false. While the % mitigation has diminishing returns, the effectiveness does not. Here is the chart that shows how armor/damage mitigation works:
The columns are:
armor, % mitigation, dmg taken from 100, dmg required to do 100 dmg.
[/pre]2500 31.25% 68.75 145.45
3500 38.89% 61.11 163.64
4500 45.00% 55.00 181.82
5500 50.00% 50.00 200.00
6500 54.17% 45.83 218.18
7500 57.69% 42.31 236.36
8500 60.71% 39.29 254.55
9500 63.33% 36.67 272.73
10500 65.63% 34.38 290.91
11500 67.65% 32.35 309.09
12500 69.44% 30.56 327.27
13500 71.05% 28.95 345.45
14500 72.50% 27.50 363.64
15500 73.81% 26.19 381.82
16500 75.00% 25.00 400.00[/pre]
The simple version is: The more armor you have, the less mitigation you will get from 1000 more armor. However, each % point is more effective than the last. That is, 70 to 75% makes a much bigger difference in damage taken than 50 to 55%.
This chart shows for every 1000 armor, someone will have to hit for about 18 more dmg than he
did before to still hit you for 100 dmg.
Each 1000 armor provides the same protection as the 1000 before it!
Shendralah explains it in a different way deeper in this thread. Essentialy he points out that because of the above chart: armor increases improve time survived linearly.
The only valid argument that armor "diminishes" is the same one that says just about any stat diminishes. Whats 100 more hp when you already have 9000? Whats 50 more attack power when you already have 1200?
There are no artificial diminishing returns on armor until you reach the hard cap of 16500. (Although at lvl 70 the cap will be higher I'm sure)
2) Bears dont hold as much aggro as warriors:
A bear's aggro is closely related to his crit percentage (largely because of primal fury).
Pre 1.8, bear aggro was acceptable but often touchy in the short term. Bears had to have a very high crit to generate enough rage and hold aggro during those parries/dodges.
In 1.8, rather than add an instant attack like sunder to give bears acceptable short term aggro (faire fire and swipe are helpful but quite count), bliz has upped bears aggro in general. With 15% aggro increase, 9% passive crit chance, and close to double the dps previous to 1.8, We now have good short term aggro and incredible long term aggro (with swipe always available as a rage dump).
A crit maul creates a huge amount of hate, and I have yet to find a warrior (even protection) who generates more hate on average long term. Its usually only a matter of time before 1-3 consecutive crit mauls pulls the mob off of him, and the it is mine forever. The best protection warriors I know generate roughly equivalent amounts of hate.
3) Bears make bad tanks because they dont have defense skill:
Defense skill is really important for warriors. In my experience, this is NOT TRUE for druids. Things may change when my guild gets going in BWL, but for now a large hp pool (8-9k) more than makes up for those big crits (I cant recall being crit in MC for over 2k, most crits are in the 1500-1600 range).
EDIT: I've now tanked vael and razorgore. My guild is hopin to down broodlord soon. Lack of defense still has not stopped me from being an effective main tank.
Also, remember everyone is succeptible to crushing blows (+50% dmg) regardless of defense skill. Crits (+100% dmg) are only one source of burst dps.
There are two reasons why druids gimp themselves if they focus on defense:
defense skill was scaled for warriors who get parry, block, AND dodge. Since druids cant parry or block, the relative cost of getting defense skill is higher. (this became even more true after the general defense nerf)
itemization - there is a severe lack of GOOD leather with defense on it. A bear trying for a respectable defense skill gives up a lot. This isnt to say defense skill isn't helpful. But dont stress over it. Focus on what a bear is good at (armor + hp).
4) Bears primary stats should be strength and stam.
For tanking, strength is not as useful as agility. Agi adds to dodge and increases aggro/rage generation through crits (primal fury is a must for serious tanking). Remember also that swipe (a good aggro tool) cannot be boosted by strength but it can crit.
The balance you will need to find comes between agil, armor, and stam. This really depends on the fight. Finding a healthy mix depending on the situation is the key. Some fights you want to generate as much hate as possible (onyxia, azuregos); you may even consider losing armor/hp for some strength or +hit on these fights. Other times your hp is going to be more important. Once in a while I give it all up for maximum armor. When tanking an add on domo for instance (hits like a weakling), max armor saves my priest mana.
Basically you want just enough crit to ensure that aggro is solid, and the rest into hp/armor/resists depending on the fight.
The first time I tanked azuregos, I was really nervous about holding aggro. I saw the way he can "get loose" after a teleport. I used a mongoose pot (3.25% crit), and ate some squid (10 agi = .5% crit). Also got a shaman to lay grace of air (another 3.5% crit or so) and strength of earth.
At the end of the fight I was second on the dps chart. Part of this is accounted for by the "extra" swings I get on Az after every teleport, but also because I was critting so often and generating large amounts of rage (since then my gear has improved and I feel comfortable tanking him without any extra buffs).
For big fights dont neglect consumables, especially those that add to stam or crit. When a bear takes a lung juice thingytail, for instance, he gets 600 hp, while a warrior only gains 500. If a warrior drinks a mongoose pot, his aggro wont change much. A bear, however, will notice a big difference. This is part of your advantage as a bear tank, so use it.
A warrior's aggro is more or less static. It depends on his weapon, talents and skill level. A bear's aggro depends mostly on your crit %, and your ability to press maul after every swing (i know its complicated, but thats where 90% of my hate comes from).
Here is a good example on the subject. Compare:
ash covered boots: www.thottbot.com/?i=37271
dawn treaders: www.thottbot.com/?i=40654
bloodrenched footpads: www.thottbot.com/?i=51081
Which is the best? Well... that depends on the rest of your gear. I actually used to carry all 3 around with me (I now use arathi basin boots almost exclusively). Ash covered are the best most of the time, but the high agi and +hit on bloodrenched are good for fights where aggro stability is difficult. Because we dont have instant attacks (swipe doesnt count, because if it misses u still lose rage) +to hit is not a bad way to improve your short term aggro.
(in the long run you'll get more aggro from 1% crit, than 1% hit, but bears already excell at long term aggro)
5) Demoralize isn't very useful
Demoralize reduces dmg taken by a PERCENTAGE from mobs. It doesnt work this way pvp, and so demoralize has long been misunderstood.
Even in MC, there is a BIG difference in the damage I take when a mob is demoralized, so I went and did a controlled test in winterspring.
Over approx 100 swings, a lvl 58 Shardtooth mauler hit for 16% less dmg per swing with my demoralize roar (unimproved) on him than without. A lvl 59 elite giant at the southern end of winterspring hit for, wouldn't you know it, 16% less dmg. Even though the mob was hitting me 5 times as hard as the non-elite demoralize had the same % impact.
Then had my warrior buddy try his demoralize with talents (208 I beleive) and found a 25% dmg decrease on both mobs. The other thing this means is.... a shrink ray with -250 atk power is amazingly useful, especially because it stacks with demoralize.
When tanking places like ZG, demo can also be used as aggro on a large number of mobs. Since warrior demoralize is stronger a warrior should keep up demo shout while you are tanking, and preferrably have improved demo shout. You will also need a warrior to keep up on sunder armor (he'll never pull aggro off you with sunder), as this will increase your raid dps significantly, and actually improves your aggro generation relative to the casters.
reserved
EDIT: Some important points have been brought up in this thread. And I think they deserve a spot up near the top.
1) Defense skill is not useless for druids. My point there is an attempt to get druids to stop worrying about defense gear at the cost of other stats.
2) A bear doesnt RELY on huge crits to hold aggro. Without critting a bears aggro is acceptable. The extra damage and rage from crits however is what makes a bears long term aggro amazing.
3) There is more to tanking that just waiting there hoping for big crits. You need to use every ability available to you to hold aggro. However, the best way to up your aggro (assuming you're doing all you can), is to increase your crit.
4) A large hp pool does more than just let u survive burst dps. Hp also helps healers be more efficient with their heals.
5)One caveat inspired by some of the other posters. This information is assuming you understand the basics of tanking in general, and how bears hold aggro. My experiences come from a full tank spec (11/33/7).
6) Bear aggro testing: I've started some more rigorous bear aggro testing. Here are the PRELIMARY numbers.
The scale is: an equivalent amount of white dmg. Bears and warriors (in defensive) generate equivalent amounts of hate per point of dmg. (at first I though bear was more, but on further more accurate testing I'd say they are equivalent, or atleast within 5% of each other).
Demoralizing Roar: 50
Feral Faire Fire: 100 (produced MUCH less aggro when used in cat)
Swipe: dmgx3 (70 dmg is about 200 aggro, a 140 crit was holding 400)
Maul: dmgx2 (350 holds roughly 700, a crit holds twice the aggro)
I cant say how things work for warriors, but crits DO hold double the aggro. Maul and swipe works as aggro multipliers, NOT as innate aggro + dmg.
If you want to see how the testing is being done, etc. Look later in the thread where I am going to post more details (ended up on page 14 for me).
7) Made a more basic guide for the "less experienced" bear tank. Here: forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=609339&p=1&tmp=1#post609339
I got all this info from Hugehoss.
In my quest to be an effective bear tank, I've been told a lot of things from druids and non-druids alike. Most of which involved theorycraft why bears are bad tanks, and that I should respec restoration. Here are some of them:
1) Armor has diminishing returns:
This is false. While the % mitigation has diminishing returns, the effectiveness does not. Here is the chart that shows how armor/damage mitigation works:
The columns are:
armor, % mitigation, dmg taken from 100, dmg required to do 100 dmg.
[/pre]2500 31.25% 68.75 145.45
3500 38.89% 61.11 163.64
4500 45.00% 55.00 181.82
5500 50.00% 50.00 200.00
6500 54.17% 45.83 218.18
7500 57.69% 42.31 236.36
8500 60.71% 39.29 254.55
9500 63.33% 36.67 272.73
10500 65.63% 34.38 290.91
11500 67.65% 32.35 309.09
12500 69.44% 30.56 327.27
13500 71.05% 28.95 345.45
14500 72.50% 27.50 363.64
15500 73.81% 26.19 381.82
16500 75.00% 25.00 400.00[/pre]
The simple version is: The more armor you have, the less mitigation you will get from 1000 more armor. However, each % point is more effective than the last. That is, 70 to 75% makes a much bigger difference in damage taken than 50 to 55%.
This chart shows for every 1000 armor, someone will have to hit for about 18 more dmg than he
did before to still hit you for 100 dmg.
Each 1000 armor provides the same protection as the 1000 before it!
Shendralah explains it in a different way deeper in this thread. Essentialy he points out that because of the above chart: armor increases improve time survived linearly.
The only valid argument that armor "diminishes" is the same one that says just about any stat diminishes. Whats 100 more hp when you already have 9000? Whats 50 more attack power when you already have 1200?
There are no artificial diminishing returns on armor until you reach the hard cap of 16500. (Although at lvl 70 the cap will be higher I'm sure)
2) Bears dont hold as much aggro as warriors:
A bear's aggro is closely related to his crit percentage (largely because of primal fury).
Pre 1.8, bear aggro was acceptable but often touchy in the short term. Bears had to have a very high crit to generate enough rage and hold aggro during those parries/dodges.
In 1.8, rather than add an instant attack like sunder to give bears acceptable short term aggro (faire fire and swipe are helpful but quite count), bliz has upped bears aggro in general. With 15% aggro increase, 9% passive crit chance, and close to double the dps previous to 1.8, We now have good short term aggro and incredible long term aggro (with swipe always available as a rage dump).
A crit maul creates a huge amount of hate, and I have yet to find a warrior (even protection) who generates more hate on average long term. Its usually only a matter of time before 1-3 consecutive crit mauls pulls the mob off of him, and the it is mine forever. The best protection warriors I know generate roughly equivalent amounts of hate.
3) Bears make bad tanks because they dont have defense skill:
Defense skill is really important for warriors. In my experience, this is NOT TRUE for druids. Things may change when my guild gets going in BWL, but for now a large hp pool (8-9k) more than makes up for those big crits (I cant recall being crit in MC for over 2k, most crits are in the 1500-1600 range).
EDIT: I've now tanked vael and razorgore. My guild is hopin to down broodlord soon. Lack of defense still has not stopped me from being an effective main tank.
Also, remember everyone is succeptible to crushing blows (+50% dmg) regardless of defense skill. Crits (+100% dmg) are only one source of burst dps.
There are two reasons why druids gimp themselves if they focus on defense:
defense skill was scaled for warriors who get parry, block, AND dodge. Since druids cant parry or block, the relative cost of getting defense skill is higher. (this became even more true after the general defense nerf)
itemization - there is a severe lack of GOOD leather with defense on it. A bear trying for a respectable defense skill gives up a lot. This isnt to say defense skill isn't helpful. But dont stress over it. Focus on what a bear is good at (armor + hp).
4) Bears primary stats should be strength and stam.
For tanking, strength is not as useful as agility. Agi adds to dodge and increases aggro/rage generation through crits (primal fury is a must for serious tanking). Remember also that swipe (a good aggro tool) cannot be boosted by strength but it can crit.
The balance you will need to find comes between agil, armor, and stam. This really depends on the fight. Finding a healthy mix depending on the situation is the key. Some fights you want to generate as much hate as possible (onyxia, azuregos); you may even consider losing armor/hp for some strength or +hit on these fights. Other times your hp is going to be more important. Once in a while I give it all up for maximum armor. When tanking an add on domo for instance (hits like a weakling), max armor saves my priest mana.
Basically you want just enough crit to ensure that aggro is solid, and the rest into hp/armor/resists depending on the fight.
The first time I tanked azuregos, I was really nervous about holding aggro. I saw the way he can "get loose" after a teleport. I used a mongoose pot (3.25% crit), and ate some squid (10 agi = .5% crit). Also got a shaman to lay grace of air (another 3.5% crit or so) and strength of earth.
At the end of the fight I was second on the dps chart. Part of this is accounted for by the "extra" swings I get on Az after every teleport, but also because I was critting so often and generating large amounts of rage (since then my gear has improved and I feel comfortable tanking him without any extra buffs).
For big fights dont neglect consumables, especially those that add to stam or crit. When a bear takes a lung juice thingytail, for instance, he gets 600 hp, while a warrior only gains 500. If a warrior drinks a mongoose pot, his aggro wont change much. A bear, however, will notice a big difference. This is part of your advantage as a bear tank, so use it.
A warrior's aggro is more or less static. It depends on his weapon, talents and skill level. A bear's aggro depends mostly on your crit %, and your ability to press maul after every swing (i know its complicated, but thats where 90% of my hate comes from).
Here is a good example on the subject. Compare:
ash covered boots: www.thottbot.com/?i=37271
dawn treaders: www.thottbot.com/?i=40654
bloodrenched footpads: www.thottbot.com/?i=51081
Which is the best? Well... that depends on the rest of your gear. I actually used to carry all 3 around with me (I now use arathi basin boots almost exclusively). Ash covered are the best most of the time, but the high agi and +hit on bloodrenched are good for fights where aggro stability is difficult. Because we dont have instant attacks (swipe doesnt count, because if it misses u still lose rage) +to hit is not a bad way to improve your short term aggro.
(in the long run you'll get more aggro from 1% crit, than 1% hit, but bears already excell at long term aggro)
5) Demoralize isn't very useful
Demoralize reduces dmg taken by a PERCENTAGE from mobs. It doesnt work this way pvp, and so demoralize has long been misunderstood.
Even in MC, there is a BIG difference in the damage I take when a mob is demoralized, so I went and did a controlled test in winterspring.
Over approx 100 swings, a lvl 58 Shardtooth mauler hit for 16% less dmg per swing with my demoralize roar (unimproved) on him than without. A lvl 59 elite giant at the southern end of winterspring hit for, wouldn't you know it, 16% less dmg. Even though the mob was hitting me 5 times as hard as the non-elite demoralize had the same % impact.
Then had my warrior buddy try his demoralize with talents (208 I beleive) and found a 25% dmg decrease on both mobs. The other thing this means is.... a shrink ray with -250 atk power is amazingly useful, especially because it stacks with demoralize.
When tanking places like ZG, demo can also be used as aggro on a large number of mobs. Since warrior demoralize is stronger a warrior should keep up demo shout while you are tanking, and preferrably have improved demo shout. You will also need a warrior to keep up on sunder armor (he'll never pull aggro off you with sunder), as this will increase your raid dps significantly, and actually improves your aggro generation relative to the casters.
reserved
EDIT: Some important points have been brought up in this thread. And I think they deserve a spot up near the top.
1) Defense skill is not useless for druids. My point there is an attempt to get druids to stop worrying about defense gear at the cost of other stats.
2) A bear doesnt RELY on huge crits to hold aggro. Without critting a bears aggro is acceptable. The extra damage and rage from crits however is what makes a bears long term aggro amazing.
3) There is more to tanking that just waiting there hoping for big crits. You need to use every ability available to you to hold aggro. However, the best way to up your aggro (assuming you're doing all you can), is to increase your crit.
4) A large hp pool does more than just let u survive burst dps. Hp also helps healers be more efficient with their heals.
5)One caveat inspired by some of the other posters. This information is assuming you understand the basics of tanking in general, and how bears hold aggro. My experiences come from a full tank spec (11/33/7).
6) Bear aggro testing: I've started some more rigorous bear aggro testing. Here are the PRELIMARY numbers.
The scale is: an equivalent amount of white dmg. Bears and warriors (in defensive) generate equivalent amounts of hate per point of dmg. (at first I though bear was more, but on further more accurate testing I'd say they are equivalent, or atleast within 5% of each other).
Demoralizing Roar: 50
Feral Faire Fire: 100 (produced MUCH less aggro when used in cat)
Swipe: dmgx3 (70 dmg is about 200 aggro, a 140 crit was holding 400)
Maul: dmgx2 (350 holds roughly 700, a crit holds twice the aggro)
I cant say how things work for warriors, but crits DO hold double the aggro. Maul and swipe works as aggro multipliers, NOT as innate aggro + dmg.
If you want to see how the testing is being done, etc. Look later in the thread where I am going to post more details (ended up on page 14 for me).
7) Made a more basic guide for the "less experienced" bear tank. Here: forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=609339&p=1&tmp=1#post609339
I got all this info from Hugehoss.