Post by Lochart on Sept 24, 2007 17:12:57 GMT -5
I'm a tank. I've always been a tank. I'll die a tank. Then I'll be rezzed and keep on tanking. So for those interested, I thought I would share some of the insights I've picked up over the literal years.
Up front, here's my philosophy on tanks. We don't do damage. We just don't. Threat is generated via abilities, talents, and equipment. I'm a 70 and in defensive stance, I hit 70 level mobs for 100-150 white damage. I've had shield slam crits as high as 1100 before, but not because I'm aiming to do it.
What we DO do is mitigate incoming damage. We take anything that toons can get hit with and keep asking for more. To that end, I'm a HUGE fan of making sure we generate lots of threat, and when we have a mob (or 3's) attention, we keep it, and try to keep our own damage to a minimum.
So to my mind, talents are divided into two useful types for a protection warrior: Those which make our threat generating abilities (revenge, heroic strike, sunder armor, thunderclap) cheaper/better, and those which boost our own ability to avoid as much damage as possible (shield specialization, shield mastery, vitality, deflection, anticipation)
First off, talents, since that's the easiest place to start any everyone wants to know what to put things in. Since I'm not high tech enough to link my build directly, here's a list of my build.
Arms (13 points)
3/3 Improved Heroic Strike
5/5 Deflection
2/2 Improved Charge
3/3 Improved Thunder Clap
Protection (48 points)
2/2 Improved Bloodrage
3/3 Tactical Mastery
5/5 Anticipation
5/5 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
1/1 Last Stand
3/3 Improved Revenge
3/3 Defiance
3/3 Improved Sunder Armor
2/2 Improved Taunt
1/1 Concussion Blow
2/2 Improved Shield Bash
3/3 Shield Mastery
1/1 Shield Slam
3/3 Focused Rage
5/5 Vitality
1/1 Devastate
PROTECTION TREE
Imp. Bloodrage- Warriors need rage. The more the better. In a group with a healer, the health loss isn't an issue.
Tactical Mastery- Stance dancing is fun: the most common instance is battle stance, charge in to generate rage, then switch to defensive stance to actually tank. The ability to maintain that rage through the stance shift is invaluable.
Anticipation- Defense is the most important stat for a warrior next to armor. While there is an upper limit (while the level limit remains 70, that would be 490), the rule of thumb is; more is better.
Shield Specialization- A warrior's favorite thing to do after actually taking damage is of course, blocking. This allows you increase your odds of doing so AND generate rage, so it's a no-brainer.
Toughness- Amor is important, remember?
Now we get into more controversial talents
Last Stand- Ever gotten that boss down to 2%, you're the only one alive except maybe a mage who's out of mana, and you're at 50% with no heals in sight? 20 seconds is a surprisingly long time in a boss fight, and even a prot warrior can deal out respectable dps as long as he's alive. Combined with shield wall, this talent makes you VERY self-sustained, if only temporarily.
Imp. Shield Block- OK, I admit: I'm strongly thinking about respeccing slightly to get this talent, as I'm using it more and more. Particularly in the end game where mobs and bosses can hit normally for over 1000, the more you block, the better off you are. It helps the healer by mitigating damage, and with this talent, it will regenerate 2 of the 10 rage it costs to use. However, even without Imp., the regular shield block serves an excellent end, so if you're hurting for points in other places, skip this.
Imp. Revenge- Some say this is useless because the stun doesn't affect enough mobs to justify 3 talent points. Having run every non-raid instance in the game, I am forced to disagree. It affects virtually every non-boss mob in the game at any level. The other thing to note is that a 45% chance procs almost every time I've used it. I use this ability primarily to stun spellcasters in the middle of heals or channeled spells or mind controls, when my two other abilities (Concussion Blow and Shield Bash) are on cooldown. Further, since your combined block/dodge/parry percentages should enable you to avoid roughly a quarter to a third of all attacks, odds are good that revenge will be available so often that it can't cooldown fast enough. But again, this one's debatable, and should be left to your own playing style.
Defiance- If you don't put 3 points in this, go respec to arms/fury right now. We live by threat. If we can't produce it, we're excess baggage.
Imp. Sunder Armor- Primary threat generation ability. Make it as cheap as you can. Ever heard "Wait for 3 sunders, then go."? See above comment for Defiance.
Imp. Disarm- Some love it, I never use it. I went with Revenge and I stand by my choice. If a healer is having trouble healing you through hits that a boss (who is likely immune to disarm anyway) is dishing out, you've got bigger troubles than trying to get him to drop his weapon for an extra 3 seconds.
Imp. Taunt- Debatable. The argument in a nutshell goes, "If you need to taunt every 6 seconds instead of every 8 to hold aggro, you suck as a tank". MY response is "If something resists your taunt and goes for a mage or a healer instead of you, 2 seconds can be an eternity." Besides, it's the only free ability we have (I know I know, except for victory rush and charge. You're missing the point), so might as well have it available as a last resort. Or, imagine as often happens, that OTHER CC breaks, or you're assigned two targets from the start of the fight. Then being able to taunt every 6 seconds allows you to switch back and forth between targets sundering constantly to keep multiple targets' attention. But, this is one of those that's up to personal choice. If 8 seconds is taunt enough for you, congratulations, you have 2 more points to spend
Imp. Shield Wall If you have the points, go for it. I didn't, so I skipped it. My rationale is pretty lacking, save that I don't use the talent that often because of course, it's supposed to be a last resort. And since Last Stand gives me 30% more health for 20 seconds for only 1 talent point, I made my choice, and I stand by it. Here again is a "flexible" talent; so if you have extras lying around, pump some in here.
Concussion Blow- We have few enough stuns as it is. Best pile em on so when a mage's Counterspell is on cooldown, you have a way to stop that massive heal. Also necessary for Shield Slam, which is the one way we have to deal major damage.
Imp. Shield Bash- What's better than interrupting spells? How about ensuring they can't cast again for 3 seconds? Exceedingly useful for pulling casters who have that annoying habit of standing where they are and throwing spells at you instead of running at you so you can hit them. As well as preventing heals of course.
Shield Mastery- A warrior's best friend next to priests is a shield. So you might as well make the most of it. No-brainer in my book.
1H Weapon Specialization- I know, I know, tempting, and people are probably telling me I'm an idiot. But again, if you want to do damage, respec arms/fury or reroll rogue/hunter/mage/warlock. "But Lochart! Dealing damage generates threat!" That's true Billy, but take a look at this: Let's say (generously) that I can do 200 damage per swing of my weapon. Then I get a whopping 20 extra base dps, which I grant goes through some modifiers, and might even generate upwards of 250 damage all told. OR, I could take those 5 points and put them in something like Vitality, and get 5% more health AND 10% more strength. That's a 15% stat bonus in stats that tanks actually strive for, rather than dealing damage, which for the nth time, we don't do. Or if you want a more direct comparison, take the 5 points and put them in Focused Rage (see below) and Imp. Heroic Strike, so your HS now costs a mere 10 rage instead of 15. THAT will more than make up for your threat generation because you'll be able to stack sunders so much faster. Case closed.
Imp. Defensive Stance Again, personal choice here. Since at high levels you'll have "Spell Reflection" as a basic ability, which lets you bounce 100% of a harmful spell back at its caster, reducing damage by 6% seems unnecessary. Particularly since, if you buy into my ideas, you'll have 2.5 ways (Imp. Revenge only counts as a half because it's not a sure thing) to silence/interrupt spell casting already, the only time you'll get hit with spell damage is on bosses or uninterruptible casts, and there, 6% of 2000 shadow bolt damage (for example) is only 120, which isn't a big help to the healer overall.
Shield Slam- It's a way to get some damage on the board, AND its description says "generates a high amount of threat" My favorite thing to do is charge in battle stance, Shield Slam (it requires "shields" not "defensive stance") so I don't lose rage by changing stances, switch to defensive, and start sundering. The added bonus of that ploy is since you Slam in battle stance, you aren't subjected to the 10% damage reduction. Maximizing your one major damage ability. On an aside, if you miss with the Slam, just switch to defensive and taunt, and you're back where you would have been anyway.
Focused Rage- At first I thought, "Wait, I'm protection, I don't have any offensive abilities." Noob moment, I got over it. This applies to virtually all your abilities, most notably Sunder Armor and Heroic Strike. Those two are important because if you put talents into Imp. Sunder and Imp. Heroic Strike on top of Focused Rage, they stack, and each only costs 9 rage, so you can be a sundering/striking machine non-stop.
Vitality- Wait, for 5 points I can get 5% more stam and 10% more strength, the two most important basic stats of a warrior? There is no reason not to have this talent maxed out. None. NO! Quiet down. Just scroll over "Vitality" and click 5 times. Seriously though, it's important to remember that those are the base stat pumps, and that with other modifiers, you end up with a lot more than 5% more health. And remember too that with Last Stand, the more base health you have, the more Last Stand will give you.
Devastate- The fact that this ability deals damage is of minimal importance. What IS important is that it deals threat for each level of sunder already applied, and renews the timer. The only real drawback is that it's more expensive than an actual sunder (12 rage versus 9 if you're following my build), but it does do SOME damage, so that helps. Once you have the mob/boss's attention firmly, you can just spam Devestate, Heroic Strike, and Shield Slam when the cooldown is up, and that will pretty much max out the damage you can contribute, with an occasional Thunderclap and Rend thrown in.
OK, so, if you followed all that, you have at MOST 13 points free at level 70. You can now go back and pump points into things I said "Eh, maybe" to if you want to stay pure protection, or you can forge into another tree and "branch out" ;D
I find the arms tree more amenable to expansion, as fury focuses too heavily on my arch-nemesis; dealing damage.
ARMS TREE
Imp. Heroic Strike- To me, another no brainer. Once sunders are up, this is your primary mode of threat generation, so the cheaper it is, the better. And of course, it's another ability described as "generating a high amount of threat" so it's a good one to use.
Deflection- Increased parry helps with two things: avoiding damage altogether and making life easier for the healer, and triggering Revenge, so you can turn around and do some damage/stun the mob depending on if you specced into that talent as above.
Imp. Rend- DoTs are nice, really, and every little bit helps, but top level Rend does 182 damage over 21 seconds, +/- a little based on weapon damage (10 in my case). That's such a minor irritation to most high end mobs that a little more won't do much. And of course, according to me, damage dealing is best left to actual dps classes, so I skipped this one.
Imp. Charge- Not strictly necessary, especially when you hit that level of tanking where everything needs to be pulled to you rather than fought where they stand. But, I use it often enough while questing or doing lower level instances that the extra rage is nice. However, if I had to change one thing about my build I would probably take the points out of here and put one into Imp. Shield Block and the other into Imp. Shield Wall.
Imp. Thunderclap- Thunderclap is as close as we get to aoe, which gets used all the time. So any way to make it better is good. 100% more damage, make it cost 4 less rage, and make it slow down the targets an additional 10% all for 3 points? You win. Further, note that combined with Focused Rage, Thunderclap now only costs 13 rage total.
Iron Will- I don't have points here, but it's in the same level as the two above, so I thought I'd comment. On the surface, a total of 15% chance to resist stuns and charms seems great. But the problems are several. First, 5 points are tough to scrape together at this point. Second, 15% isn't really a huge number. As a general rule, if something doesn't increase a % by 25 or more, I skip it figuring it won't happen often enough to make it worth it. Third, FEAR is neither a stun nor a charm effect, so the warrior's worst enemy spell is unaffected by this talent. Lastly, if you're really good at the stance dance and timing, Berserker's Rage makes you immune to fear and "incapacitating effects" which at least covers stuns, if not charms. Since it can operate in any stance, you can turn that on for 10 seconds, switch to defensive, and be immune rather than having a chance to resist. Just food for thought.
Up front, here's my philosophy on tanks. We don't do damage. We just don't. Threat is generated via abilities, talents, and equipment. I'm a 70 and in defensive stance, I hit 70 level mobs for 100-150 white damage. I've had shield slam crits as high as 1100 before, but not because I'm aiming to do it.
What we DO do is mitigate incoming damage. We take anything that toons can get hit with and keep asking for more. To that end, I'm a HUGE fan of making sure we generate lots of threat, and when we have a mob (or 3's) attention, we keep it, and try to keep our own damage to a minimum.
So to my mind, talents are divided into two useful types for a protection warrior: Those which make our threat generating abilities (revenge, heroic strike, sunder armor, thunderclap) cheaper/better, and those which boost our own ability to avoid as much damage as possible (shield specialization, shield mastery, vitality, deflection, anticipation)
First off, talents, since that's the easiest place to start any everyone wants to know what to put things in. Since I'm not high tech enough to link my build directly, here's a list of my build.
Arms (13 points)
3/3 Improved Heroic Strike
5/5 Deflection
2/2 Improved Charge
3/3 Improved Thunder Clap
Protection (48 points)
2/2 Improved Bloodrage
3/3 Tactical Mastery
5/5 Anticipation
5/5 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
1/1 Last Stand
3/3 Improved Revenge
3/3 Defiance
3/3 Improved Sunder Armor
2/2 Improved Taunt
1/1 Concussion Blow
2/2 Improved Shield Bash
3/3 Shield Mastery
1/1 Shield Slam
3/3 Focused Rage
5/5 Vitality
1/1 Devastate
PROTECTION TREE
Imp. Bloodrage- Warriors need rage. The more the better. In a group with a healer, the health loss isn't an issue.
Tactical Mastery- Stance dancing is fun: the most common instance is battle stance, charge in to generate rage, then switch to defensive stance to actually tank. The ability to maintain that rage through the stance shift is invaluable.
Anticipation- Defense is the most important stat for a warrior next to armor. While there is an upper limit (while the level limit remains 70, that would be 490), the rule of thumb is; more is better.
Shield Specialization- A warrior's favorite thing to do after actually taking damage is of course, blocking. This allows you increase your odds of doing so AND generate rage, so it's a no-brainer.
Toughness- Amor is important, remember?
Now we get into more controversial talents
Last Stand- Ever gotten that boss down to 2%, you're the only one alive except maybe a mage who's out of mana, and you're at 50% with no heals in sight? 20 seconds is a surprisingly long time in a boss fight, and even a prot warrior can deal out respectable dps as long as he's alive. Combined with shield wall, this talent makes you VERY self-sustained, if only temporarily.
Imp. Shield Block- OK, I admit: I'm strongly thinking about respeccing slightly to get this talent, as I'm using it more and more. Particularly in the end game where mobs and bosses can hit normally for over 1000, the more you block, the better off you are. It helps the healer by mitigating damage, and with this talent, it will regenerate 2 of the 10 rage it costs to use. However, even without Imp., the regular shield block serves an excellent end, so if you're hurting for points in other places, skip this.
Imp. Revenge- Some say this is useless because the stun doesn't affect enough mobs to justify 3 talent points. Having run every non-raid instance in the game, I am forced to disagree. It affects virtually every non-boss mob in the game at any level. The other thing to note is that a 45% chance procs almost every time I've used it. I use this ability primarily to stun spellcasters in the middle of heals or channeled spells or mind controls, when my two other abilities (Concussion Blow and Shield Bash) are on cooldown. Further, since your combined block/dodge/parry percentages should enable you to avoid roughly a quarter to a third of all attacks, odds are good that revenge will be available so often that it can't cooldown fast enough. But again, this one's debatable, and should be left to your own playing style.
Defiance- If you don't put 3 points in this, go respec to arms/fury right now. We live by threat. If we can't produce it, we're excess baggage.
Imp. Sunder Armor- Primary threat generation ability. Make it as cheap as you can. Ever heard "Wait for 3 sunders, then go."? See above comment for Defiance.
Imp. Disarm- Some love it, I never use it. I went with Revenge and I stand by my choice. If a healer is having trouble healing you through hits that a boss (who is likely immune to disarm anyway) is dishing out, you've got bigger troubles than trying to get him to drop his weapon for an extra 3 seconds.
Imp. Taunt- Debatable. The argument in a nutshell goes, "If you need to taunt every 6 seconds instead of every 8 to hold aggro, you suck as a tank". MY response is "If something resists your taunt and goes for a mage or a healer instead of you, 2 seconds can be an eternity." Besides, it's the only free ability we have (I know I know, except for victory rush and charge. You're missing the point), so might as well have it available as a last resort. Or, imagine as often happens, that OTHER CC breaks, or you're assigned two targets from the start of the fight. Then being able to taunt every 6 seconds allows you to switch back and forth between targets sundering constantly to keep multiple targets' attention. But, this is one of those that's up to personal choice. If 8 seconds is taunt enough for you, congratulations, you have 2 more points to spend
Imp. Shield Wall If you have the points, go for it. I didn't, so I skipped it. My rationale is pretty lacking, save that I don't use the talent that often because of course, it's supposed to be a last resort. And since Last Stand gives me 30% more health for 20 seconds for only 1 talent point, I made my choice, and I stand by it. Here again is a "flexible" talent; so if you have extras lying around, pump some in here.
Concussion Blow- We have few enough stuns as it is. Best pile em on so when a mage's Counterspell is on cooldown, you have a way to stop that massive heal. Also necessary for Shield Slam, which is the one way we have to deal major damage.
Imp. Shield Bash- What's better than interrupting spells? How about ensuring they can't cast again for 3 seconds? Exceedingly useful for pulling casters who have that annoying habit of standing where they are and throwing spells at you instead of running at you so you can hit them. As well as preventing heals of course.
Shield Mastery- A warrior's best friend next to priests is a shield. So you might as well make the most of it. No-brainer in my book.
1H Weapon Specialization- I know, I know, tempting, and people are probably telling me I'm an idiot. But again, if you want to do damage, respec arms/fury or reroll rogue/hunter/mage/warlock. "But Lochart! Dealing damage generates threat!" That's true Billy, but take a look at this: Let's say (generously) that I can do 200 damage per swing of my weapon. Then I get a whopping 20 extra base dps, which I grant goes through some modifiers, and might even generate upwards of 250 damage all told. OR, I could take those 5 points and put them in something like Vitality, and get 5% more health AND 10% more strength. That's a 15% stat bonus in stats that tanks actually strive for, rather than dealing damage, which for the nth time, we don't do. Or if you want a more direct comparison, take the 5 points and put them in Focused Rage (see below) and Imp. Heroic Strike, so your HS now costs a mere 10 rage instead of 15. THAT will more than make up for your threat generation because you'll be able to stack sunders so much faster. Case closed.
Imp. Defensive Stance Again, personal choice here. Since at high levels you'll have "Spell Reflection" as a basic ability, which lets you bounce 100% of a harmful spell back at its caster, reducing damage by 6% seems unnecessary. Particularly since, if you buy into my ideas, you'll have 2.5 ways (Imp. Revenge only counts as a half because it's not a sure thing) to silence/interrupt spell casting already, the only time you'll get hit with spell damage is on bosses or uninterruptible casts, and there, 6% of 2000 shadow bolt damage (for example) is only 120, which isn't a big help to the healer overall.
Shield Slam- It's a way to get some damage on the board, AND its description says "generates a high amount of threat" My favorite thing to do is charge in battle stance, Shield Slam (it requires "shields" not "defensive stance") so I don't lose rage by changing stances, switch to defensive, and start sundering. The added bonus of that ploy is since you Slam in battle stance, you aren't subjected to the 10% damage reduction. Maximizing your one major damage ability. On an aside, if you miss with the Slam, just switch to defensive and taunt, and you're back where you would have been anyway.
Focused Rage- At first I thought, "Wait, I'm protection, I don't have any offensive abilities." Noob moment, I got over it. This applies to virtually all your abilities, most notably Sunder Armor and Heroic Strike. Those two are important because if you put talents into Imp. Sunder and Imp. Heroic Strike on top of Focused Rage, they stack, and each only costs 9 rage, so you can be a sundering/striking machine non-stop.
Vitality- Wait, for 5 points I can get 5% more stam and 10% more strength, the two most important basic stats of a warrior? There is no reason not to have this talent maxed out. None. NO! Quiet down. Just scroll over "Vitality" and click 5 times. Seriously though, it's important to remember that those are the base stat pumps, and that with other modifiers, you end up with a lot more than 5% more health. And remember too that with Last Stand, the more base health you have, the more Last Stand will give you.
Devastate- The fact that this ability deals damage is of minimal importance. What IS important is that it deals threat for each level of sunder already applied, and renews the timer. The only real drawback is that it's more expensive than an actual sunder (12 rage versus 9 if you're following my build), but it does do SOME damage, so that helps. Once you have the mob/boss's attention firmly, you can just spam Devestate, Heroic Strike, and Shield Slam when the cooldown is up, and that will pretty much max out the damage you can contribute, with an occasional Thunderclap and Rend thrown in.
OK, so, if you followed all that, you have at MOST 13 points free at level 70. You can now go back and pump points into things I said "Eh, maybe" to if you want to stay pure protection, or you can forge into another tree and "branch out" ;D
I find the arms tree more amenable to expansion, as fury focuses too heavily on my arch-nemesis; dealing damage.
ARMS TREE
Imp. Heroic Strike- To me, another no brainer. Once sunders are up, this is your primary mode of threat generation, so the cheaper it is, the better. And of course, it's another ability described as "generating a high amount of threat" so it's a good one to use.
Deflection- Increased parry helps with two things: avoiding damage altogether and making life easier for the healer, and triggering Revenge, so you can turn around and do some damage/stun the mob depending on if you specced into that talent as above.
Imp. Rend- DoTs are nice, really, and every little bit helps, but top level Rend does 182 damage over 21 seconds, +/- a little based on weapon damage (10 in my case). That's such a minor irritation to most high end mobs that a little more won't do much. And of course, according to me, damage dealing is best left to actual dps classes, so I skipped this one.
Imp. Charge- Not strictly necessary, especially when you hit that level of tanking where everything needs to be pulled to you rather than fought where they stand. But, I use it often enough while questing or doing lower level instances that the extra rage is nice. However, if I had to change one thing about my build I would probably take the points out of here and put one into Imp. Shield Block and the other into Imp. Shield Wall.
Imp. Thunderclap- Thunderclap is as close as we get to aoe, which gets used all the time. So any way to make it better is good. 100% more damage, make it cost 4 less rage, and make it slow down the targets an additional 10% all for 3 points? You win. Further, note that combined with Focused Rage, Thunderclap now only costs 13 rage total.
Iron Will- I don't have points here, but it's in the same level as the two above, so I thought I'd comment. On the surface, a total of 15% chance to resist stuns and charms seems great. But the problems are several. First, 5 points are tough to scrape together at this point. Second, 15% isn't really a huge number. As a general rule, if something doesn't increase a % by 25 or more, I skip it figuring it won't happen often enough to make it worth it. Third, FEAR is neither a stun nor a charm effect, so the warrior's worst enemy spell is unaffected by this talent. Lastly, if you're really good at the stance dance and timing, Berserker's Rage makes you immune to fear and "incapacitating effects" which at least covers stuns, if not charms. Since it can operate in any stance, you can turn that on for 10 seconds, switch to defensive, and be immune rather than having a chance to resist. Just food for thought.